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 Cross on Over to the Other Side

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Leonis



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PostSubject: Re: Cross on Over to the Other Side   Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:17 am

Thats why nameless wanted him dead so much, to shut him up Very Happy
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Nameless



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PostSubject: Re: Cross on Over to the Other Side   Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:05 am

Admin wrote:
Gareth wrote:
I take it the group is not privy to the knowledge of nameless knowing about another shard. That correct?

Correct. I don't think he's even told Trillia about it. One other person, or creature, knew about it for a time, namely the mind flayer Naxaliyen after he read Nameless' memories. But since you guys killed (and stuffed) him, it's just Nameless now. And Nameless2.

Yes Nameless has never told anyone about it. Essentially for the simple reason that he regards it as too dangerous for ANYONE to know about. If he could he'd forget about it again. He actually knew that a Shard was involved before Naxalion tossed his mind, but didn't know all of the details until then.
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Leonis



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PostSubject: Re: Cross on Over to the Other Side   Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:23 am

Well Gareth see's Nameless reasons as a bit different. Not to mention Gareth, and other group members, have stated when things concern the group they want to know about it, and another such crystal does concern the group (and the world). Nameless is not immune from having the info in his mind leached.

Anyhow, since the group does not know about it then it is not an issue.
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Luna



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PostSubject: sooo... is nameless 2 the virus part?   Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:39 am

I'm not sure I "get it".
Is Nameless 2 the dalkyr-virus tainted part?
Should we be trying to kill it?
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Admin
Admin


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PostSubject: Re: Cross on Over to the Other Side   Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:52 am

Luna wrote:
I'm not sure I "get it".
Is Nameless 2 the dalkyr-virus tainted part?
Should we be trying to kill it?

In a sense, yes. The problem is that, as far as Nameless knows, he gets a very significant part of his powers and knowledge as an alienist due to that part of his mind. He never had the interest in and aptitude for these things when he was plain old Edgar Thorn. After being touched in the head, he developed the amnesia (now mostly gone after being mind-probed by the mind flayer brought the memories back) and the interest in this subject, as well as his abilities in that area.

So, it's quite possible that killing that part of him will erase the abilities and some of his knowledge. And then there's the question of how to kill it, since it's effectively just part of his mind. It doesn't really exist separately to him, or at least didn't, till he came to Xoriat. Since it was the result of an interrupted absorption/possession act, it's partly like a wound inside his head, so maybe a powerful enough healing spell would do it. We'll see what happens when you finally hit 13th lvl and can use a Heal on him. Or even what happens when you reincarnate him in a new body. It'll be amusing - for the rest of us - if he comes back as a non-alienist Smile

Man, what a tangled web I weave!
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Luna



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PostSubject: Re: Cross on Over to the Other Side   Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:17 am

What if we bring him back as a unicorn? :-)
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Admin
Admin


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PostSubject: Re: Cross on Over to the Other Side   Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:26 am

Luna wrote:
What if we bring him back as a unicorn? :-)

Then he can't cast spells at all, and will presumably be really unhappy with Luna.

And not just because unicorns prefer virgins Wink
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Leonis



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PostSubject: Re: Cross on Over to the Other Side   Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:53 pm

So wait, you're saying Nameless gets his powers from an evil being just like Gareth got his powers from an evil being? Hmmm, interesting PURGE PURGE PURGE! cherry
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Admin
Admin


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PostSubject: Re: Cross on Over to the Other Side   Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:30 pm

Gareth wrote:
So wait, you're saying Nameless gets his powers from an evil being just like Gareth got his powers from an evil being?


Not "just like." Gareth had the evil being actively present and giving him the powers. Nameless had an evil being make mental contact and try to possess him, and when the process broke off it left him with an imprint in his head that warped parts of his mind and gives him special powers.

Quote :
Hmmm, interesting PURGE PURGE PURGE! cherry

You know that's what they say in frathouses of the Silver Flame when drinking large quantities of beer, right?
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Luna



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PostSubject: Re: Cross on Over to the Other Side   Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:31 pm

No, what do they say?? Question
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Admin
Admin


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PostSubject: Re: Cross on Over to the Other Side   Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:14 pm

Luna wrote:
No, what do they say?? Question

What Gareth said. "PURGE PURGE PURGE PURGE...!"

And don't even get me started on the holy water body shots Very Happy
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Six of Six



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PostSubject: Re: Cross on Over to the Other Side   Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:44 am

Gareth wrote:
So wait, you're saying Nameless gets his powers from an evil being just like Gareth got his powers from an evil being? Hmmm, interesting PURGE PURGE PURGE! cherry

Xoriat isn't evil just alien. The evil accurs when there is a mixing of realms. In Xoriat Nameless is probably palidin. Smile

This does bring up what exactky good and evil are in Shil's Eberron. Absolute, relational, forces, philosophies and what are you detecting when the detects are cast.
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Leonis



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PostSubject: Re: Cross on Over to the Other Side   Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:54 pm

Well, unless Shil changes the system around it is not really relative to the perspective of the person. If character X is evil alignment, and character Y is evil alignment, character X does not think character Y is good. He knows he is evil. Put it this way....if an evil cleric of some deity casts detect evil on Gareth, Gareth is not going to radiate evil. Nameless going to Xoriat is not considered a paladin.

Now is it philosophies, actions, thoughts, etc I am not sure how Shil has it, though I think it is based on actions. Shil also seems to be a bit liberal in his interpretations of evil.

You have to think about it this way. If you were a neutral person who would you want as a neighbor...Mr Lawful Good or Mr Chaotic Evil.
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Admin
Admin


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PostSubject: Re: Cross on Over to the Other Side   Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:12 pm

Gareth wrote:
Well, unless Shil changes the system around it is not really relative to the perspective of the person.

Right. By the RAW, alignment isn't reliant on perspective.

Quote :
If character X is evil alignment, and character Y is evil alignment, character X does not think character Y is good. He knows he is evil.

Only if he can detect evil, which the vast majority of the population cannot. Only paladins and clerics can. So if character X is evil in alignment, unless he's an evil cleric, he won't even know that he is evil, leave alone that Y is. And since good/evil also has meanings in the language rather than just the alignment meanings. it's perfectly possible for one evil guy to regard another evil guy who's on the same side as a good guy.

In our game, for example, Talleon (the Citadel guy) would think a loyal Brelish assassin working for the Citadel is a good guy and a paladin working for Aundair against Breland is a bad guy. Talleon knows a paladin and a cleric detecting evil will detect him as such, but that hardly makes a difference to him.

Quote :
Put it this way....if an evil cleric of some deity casts detect evil on Gareth, Gareth is not going to radiate evil. Nameless going to Xoriat is not considered a paladin.

True. The entire plane of Xoriat, by the way, is mildly evil-aligned.

Quote :
Now is it philosophies, actions, thoughts, etc I am not sure how Shil has it, though I think it is based on actions.


Mostly actions, modified by intent, philosophy and thought. Not that anyone on Eberron quite knows exactly what controls it, since it's very nebulous and there are all sorts of theories on it.

Quote :
Shil also seems to be a bit liberal in his interpretations of evil.

You mean liberal in that I don't easily think things are evil or that I think things are evil too easily?

Quote :
You have to think about it this way. If you were a neutral person who would you want as a neighbor...Mr Lawful Good or Mr Chaotic Evil.

Neither. Most would say Miss Neutral Easy would be best Very Happy
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Leonis



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PostSubject: Re: Cross on Over to the Other Side   Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:45 pm

Admin wrote:


You mean liberal in that I don't easily think things are evil or that I think things are evil too easily?

As in "Stealing candy from a baby is kind of a shade of grey"

Admin wrote:

Neither. Most would say Miss Neutral Easy would be best Very Happy

Netural wasn't an option. Good or evil. I would rather have good. Why? Cause evil is more then likely gonna do something to hurt/piss me off, while I can go to the good guy and say "get off my lawn" and the good guy being good will respect that. Evil guy will just take a dump on my lawn.
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Six of Six



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PostSubject: Re: Cross on Over to the Other Side   Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:11 pm

Gareth wrote:
Admin wrote:


You mean liberal in that I don't easily think things are evil or that I think things are evil too easily?

As in "Stealing candy from a baby is kind of a shade of grey"

Admin wrote:

Neither. Most would say Miss Neutral Easy would be best Very Happy

Netural wasn't an option. Good or evil. I would rather have good. Why? Cause evil is more then likely gonna do something to hurt/piss me off, while I can go to the good guy and say "get off my lawn" and the good guy being good will respect that. Evil guy will just take a dump on my lawn.

Are you sure? The good guy could be in a campaign for the higher good which goes right over your lawn. The neutral guy might take a dump while the evil fellow would encourage you do mess with your other neighbor.

I could say more about American common morality set and the many philosophies that challenge it. I probalbly will later. But for now through Shil's campaign, what make one evil/good has little to do with how you can behave.
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Admin
Admin


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PostSubject: Re: Cross on Over to the Other Side   Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:24 pm

Gareth wrote:
As in "Stealing candy from a baby is kind of a shade of grey"

I like the fact that you say the above, while John has complained about Gareth remaining a paladin after the situation with the fence and other issues. He did stop complaining after discovering Gareth was never a paladin, however Smile

Dave W wrote:
But for now through Shil's campaign, what make one evil/good has little to do with how you can behave.

Right. Alignment never constrains your actions. Personality and circumstances do. And the actions can change one's alignment, of course.

So, John - want to post a response to Nameless2 and head off this discussion?
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Leonis



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PostSubject: Re: Cross on Over to the Other Side   Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:13 pm

Admin wrote:

I like the fact that you say the above, while John has complained about Gareth remaining a paladin after the situation with the fence and other issues. He did stop complaining after discovering Gareth was never a paladin, however Smile

I still don't understand that. Gareth went after a criminal. The fence was a thief, a liar, a drug runner and probably more. Gareth was legitimate to go after this guy...even if just for the fact the guy did evil and illegal things. Now Nameless, on the other hand, killed one of the orcs (i think it was an orc) who 1) didn't attack us 2) did not show that he was working for the fence and 3) was cowering in the corner. That was flat out murder - nameless should be evil because of that.

Though I do not recall other issues...The only thing I remember John complaining about is the fence.
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Admin
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PostSubject: Re: Cross on Over to the Other Side   Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:50 pm

Gareth wrote:
I still don't understand that. Gareth went after a criminal. The fence was a thief, a liar, a drug runner and probably more. Gareth was legitimate to go after this guy...even if just for the fact the guy did evil and illegal things.

Gareth actually wasn't legitimate to go after the guy, since Gareth has no legal authority in Sharn. And he wasn't doing anything that's punishable by death (not even by Silver Flame standards Wink). Being a fence, a thief, a liar and a drug runner are all crimes that aren't up to death penalty standards.

Quote :
Now Nameless, on the other hand, killed one of the orcs (i think it was an orc) who 1) didn't attack us 2) did not show that he was working for the fence and 3) was cowering in the corner. That was flat out murder - nameless should be evil because of that.

One action doesn't make you evil, just as one action doesn't make you good, lawful or chaotic. If they did, then the PCs would constantly be cycling back and forth through the different alignment axes based on their individual acts. Nameless has done good, evil, lawful and chaotic things, but doesn't consistently lend one way or the other, so he's neutral.
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Nameless



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PostSubject: Re: Cross on Over to the Other Side   Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:11 pm

[quote="Admin"]Interestingly enough, Nameless2 is completely lacking in magical auras.[quote]

Is there just no magical auras or is it like there's a mind blank?

Quote :
Well, presumably just being there would be interesting for Nameless. After all, he's never actually heard of anyone who's been to Xoriat since the Gatekeepers sundered it from Eberron, and all his knowledge of the place is secondhand. Seventh-dimension geometry is one thing to read about and theoretically understand, and it's quite another thing to see it. For Nameless, this should be an absolutely unparalleled opportunity.

I'm sure it's fascinating to Nameless, but so far the descriptions have been more "Look how strange it is!" "Did we mention it's Strange?"

Quote :
"Sure. I presume you'd like to see where one of the daelkyr fortresses, right? After all, what good's it going to be ending up here if you don't actually visit one of them. I know you're well informed about those who are imprisoned in Eberron, but there are many more here who never crossed over. Want to visit the blood fields of Chaugnar Faugn, the all-seeing eye of Cyäegha, the mountain home of Ghatanathoa, the ice citadel of Rlim Shaikorth?"

He scratches his chin and then points at the giant creature slowly floating along in the distance. "Some of the Swimmers in the Darkness are interesting too, though they aren't much for conversation. I'd say the daelkyr would be more educational. Especially for you, since you're as safe from them as you could be, being dead and all."

I would prefer to avoid putting any supposed safety from the powers of the Daelkyr to the test, but I would like to see the All-Seeing Eye. That sounds most likely to be informative.
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Luna



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PostSubject: And how many angles can dance on the head of a pin?   Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:13 pm

Are we going to argue about alignment again?
That all seems extremely fruitless.
I'm sure Shil will let us know when someone has so violated their alignment that their class abilities are in danger. Nuetral-Greedy, Lawful-Inferfering... Chaotic-evil... the line is so fine...
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Luna



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PostSubject: Is it time yet???   Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:16 pm

Cant we bring Nameless back now?
I can't wait!
I just want to reincarnate someone right now!!!
You know I have no patience!! :-)
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Admin
Admin


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PostSubject: Re: Cross on Over to the Other Side   Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:35 pm

Luna wrote:
Are we going to argue about alignment again?
That all seems extremely fruitless.

That never stopped people (and I'm not talking about our group) from arguing about it.

Quote :
I'm sure Shil will let us know when someone has so violated their alignment that their class abilities are in danger. Nuetral-Greedy, Lawful-Inferfering... Chaotic-evil... the line is so fine...

Yup. Anytime it's really going to affect one of you, I'll let you know, and likely with enough warning to do something about it if needed.

Quote :
Cant we bring Nameless back now?
I can't wait!
I just want to reincarnate someone right now!!!
You know I have no patience!! :-)

Which is why I made you wait two weeks (since we'll handle that during the session).

This is my version of evil Twisted Evil
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Admin
Admin


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PostSubject: Re: Cross on Over to the Other Side   Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:16 pm

Nameless wrote:
Is there just no magical auras or is it like there's a mind blank?

With a mind blank there'd just be no magical auras either. There's no way to tell the difference.

Quote :
I'm sure it's fascinating to Nameless, but so far the descriptions have been more "Look how strange it is!" "Did we mention it's Strange?"

Poor Lovecraft had the same issue, so I'm not at all surprised. After all, how do you describe something that is specifically defined as indescribable? Sure, you can throw around "squamous" and "cyclopean" till the cows come home, but it still translates to "words can't describe it."

Quote :
I would prefer to avoid putting any supposed safety from the powers of the Daelkyr to the test, but I would like to see the All-Seeing Eye. That sounds most likely to be informative.

"Theoretically they're all Daelkyr, including the All-Seeing Eye, but I think you should be just fine." Nameless2 suddenly disappears and reappears right next to Nameless, and extends a hand. "Since travel here doesn't work as elsewhere, let's see how well you can do it. Now hold this thought."

The hand touches Nameless on the forehead. It is cold and vaguely clammy to the touch, but that realization is instantly replaced by everything going momentarily black for Nameless. He finds himself looking, though he knows it's a projected thought rather than a physical sight, at a gigantic, black globe, the front of which is a huge eye. It has an iridescent green pupil, and thin green veins run through the yellow iris that surrounds it. From the underneath of the eye, extending outwards into the darkness around it, is a field of tentacles. Things move among them, but it's impossible to make out what they are.

Nameless' vision clears and returns to where he was, as Nameless2 removes the hand and lowers it to rest on his shoulder. "Now - visualize that, and will us there."


OOC: I'll assume Nameless is doing so, and post a follow-up tomorrow. If not, or if he's doing something else, put up a post.
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Leonis



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PostSubject: Re: Cross on Over to the Other Side   Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:20 pm

Admin wrote:

Gareth actually wasn't legitimate to go after the guy, since Gareth has no legal authority in Sharn. And he wasn't doing anything that's punishable by death (not even by Silver Flame standards Wink). Being a fence, a thief, a liar and a drug runner are all crimes that aren't up to death penalty standards.
I dont care about legal authority i care about moral one. Where does it say that being a fence, thief, liar and drug runner are not death penalties by flame standards?
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