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 Dragon Slaying Planning

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Leonis



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PostSubject: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:36 am

Defensive SPELLS TO CAST
For Melee Users:
* Magic Vestement (Gareth, Six)
* Incite (Gareth, self only spell)
* Greater Blink (Six)
* Prayer (Gareth)
* Barkskin (garet/Six)

For Spell casters:

* Force cage (Nameless)
* Greater Blink (Nameless)

For all users

* Heroism
* Aid (for the +HP)
* Bless
* Haste
* Recitation
* Resist Energy (Acid) -
* Protection from Energy


Last edited by Gareth on Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:34 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Leonis



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PostSubject: Offensive Spells   Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:28 pm

<Offensive Spells>

For Melee Users:
* GMW (Gareth, Six)
* Fell The Greatest Foe (Gareth)
* Divine Favor (Gareth)
* Silence (on a tanglefoot bag) throw it on the dragons . Or give a stone to Six. Now the dragon can't cast spells
* Bestow Curse (gareth or other clerics)
* Contagion (Druid)

For Spell casters:
* Drain spells (Nameless, Korm, Luna)
* GDM (Nameless, Korm, Luna) - use with bead of karma
* Scorching ray 4d6x3
* Orb of cold (15d6)
* Flamestrike is OK. It loses damage vs equiv level dmg spells because it's area effect. How about direct damage spells that aren't aoo
* Maze (use this before dimensional lock)
* Dimensional lock - when the dragon starts to look weak
* Poison (druid/Six)
* Soften earth to mud, followed by mud to stone - now the dragon is trapped Smile - even if its only his legs (which means no leg attacks)
* Poison (druids)
* Sleet storm (hampers vision)
* insect plague
* Subeam (blind him hopefully) - or suburst if that is more likely to get in

For all users
* Prismatic Wall (to block it's escape path)
* GDM/DM on our rings of counterspells


Last edited by Gareth on Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:23 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Leonis



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PostSubject: Tactics   Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:30 pm

<Agreed Tactics>
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Nameless



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:18 pm

Nameless's Direct damage non-AOE spells are

Scorching Ray 2nd (3 x 4d6)
Orb of Cold 4th (15d6)
Polar Ray 8th (15d6) - Polar Ray sucks unless you have a LOT more caster levels than Nameless (it caps at 25d6, it's only advantage).

Druids really only have the Fire Seed Acorn Grenades that deal any significant amount of damage (they do up to 20d6). They are supposed to be SR - No, but I'm guessing Shil isn't permitting that.

Contagion is a touch range spell and it's a fort save for no effect. So it's not only dangerous for the caster to get that close, but almost certainly completely ineffective.

Poison is pretty much the same thing, though the DC is a bit higher. Neither is high enough that the Dragon will fail on anything other than a 1.

Sunbeam is a waste of a high level spell. If the dragon saves (which it will) it does essentially nothing.

Insect Plague is going to be ineffective because of the Dragon's DR.

We may wish to go GDM in the Rings of Counter Spelling. Since against Nameless a regular DM is only going to succeed on a 16 or better. Against Korm and Luna's spells cast with the beads of Karma, it would take a 20 for a regular DM to succeed. The dragon is almost certainly capable of using GDM and having enough caster levels to benefit from the higher cap.
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:44 pm

Nameless wrote:
Druids really only have the Fire Seed Acorn Grenades that deal any significant amount of damage (they do up to 20d6). They are supposed to be SR - No, but I'm guessing Shil isn't permitting that.

Correct. Fireballs have SR but magical exploding acorns don't? Bah, humbug!

Gareth wrote:
<Agreed Tactics>

Suggestion - Try not to die?
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Nameless



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:09 pm

As far as tactics go. It probably has a low initiative bonus. So that should help things.

First thing we need to do is secure the casters against melee attacks by using Forcecage on us. Hopefully that will block one end of the passage way. If not someone else is going to have to put up some sort of wall behind us after the Prismatic Wall goes up. Wall of Stone (druid 6) is probably the best choice.

We should consider having a second Forcecage. The dragon is probably high enough level as a caster to be able to cast Disintegrate.

While this is going on top priority is going to be hitting it with GDMs to take down any elemental resistances it has up. If it has a elemental resistance item, we are going to need to hit that with a targeted dispel. If it puts one up for any of the elements we are using it needs to go down pronto!

Shil, is there any targeting difficulty if you are trying to use a targeted dispel on an item?

Next we put up the Prismatic Wall behind it. It will cover up to 60' x 30'. That should block the other end. Nameless will probably quicken a Dimentional Anchor as well. Since we don't want to give it a cause to flee before we have the trap sprung (hopefully for the dragon and not us).

Nameless is going to have to reserve a quicken for a dispel magic for dispeling the Anchor if we need to Maze the Dragon. Between that and quickening the DA, he's only going to have one quicken remaining. So he's not going to be able to get off multiple spells around.

At this point it's going to be a question of can we hit it with enough stuff to drop it before it drops us with spells and breath weapons.

I think the Druids should take as many of the Fire Seeds as they can, since the grenades are a touch attack and will deal up to 19d6 a pop, if the Bead's buff is still running.

I think Gareth is going to have to concentrate on healing and re-buffing stuff like the Prot Energy.

I'm not sure what to do with Six frankly. He's probably best employed as a utility caster with his scrolls. While he could use his touch attack ability, it isn't going to be dealing much damage compared to what the casters will be dishing out and it doesn't seem like he'd last too long on his own in melee with the dragon.
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Leonis



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:31 pm

Admin wrote:
Nameless wrote:
Druids really only have the Fire Seed Acorn Grenades that deal any significant amount of damage (they do up to 20d6). They are supposed to be SR - No, but I'm guessing Shil isn't permitting that.

Correct. Fireballs have SR but magical exploding acorns don't? Bah, humbug!

Gareth wrote:
<Agreed Tactics>

Suggestion - Try not to die?

Are fireseed acorns higher level or not aoe as big (or at all) as fireball? That would be the reason why. Lose the advantage of AOE or have a higher level and all of a sudden no save. Or look at it this way - scorching ray is lower level and does not offer save/res.
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Leonis



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:39 pm

I agree with John's plan. Definitely have Gareth healing and doing utility buffs (scrolls and base spells).

Can we shoot spells through a prismatic wall? If so then I think we should cast a prismatic wall behind and in front of it. Try and box it up. SO if it decides to try and melee us then it has to go through the wall. If the casters are goign behind the forcecage then it seems only six will be out in front (unless we use him as a caster). Can six throw the fire seeds? Do we have sovereign glue? Glue the dragon to the floor Very Happy
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Nameless



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:40 pm

Gareth wrote:
Are fireseed acorns higher level or not aoe as big (or at all) as fireball?

Fire Seeds - Acorn Grenades are 6th lv and are a touch attack. They do have a very limited AOE (5', 1 pt/d6), but I'm not sure if the creature struck takes both the d6 and the splash damage. Shil?

They cap at 20d6 vs 10d6 for a third level fireball. Delayed Blast Fireball (wiz 7) caps at 20d6 as well.

Gareth wrote:
Or look at it this way - scorching ray is lower level and does not offer save/res.

Scorching Ray is affected by SR. Even if it wasn't Shil would have made it. It is somewhat over powered for a second level spell, but this is also somewhat compensated for by the fact that it's 3 separate attacks (with 3 rolls) and that any energy resistance is applied three times. So even a basic amount of Fire resistance will almost completely negate it.

Gareth wrote:
Can we shoot spells through a prismatic wall? If so then I think we should cast a prismatic wall behind and in front of it. Try and box it up.

Prismatic wall is an 8th lv spell. Nameless only gets three of them and one has to be Conjuration (PW is Abjuration). Nameless is able to pass through the wall, but it blocks anything he or anyone else would try to do through it. He also has enough other stuff to be doing.

Gareth wrote:
SO if it decides to try and melee us then it has to go through the wall. If the casters are goign behind the forcecage then it seems only six will be out in front (unless we use him as a caster).


The force cage is going around all of us. Otherwise our spells would have to pass through two sets of the bars which might block some of them. Leaving one character in melee range is essentially executing them.

Gareth wrote:
Can six throw the fire seeds?

That is a good idea. Six should be able to throw the fire seeds and they have a 10min/lvl duration. So they can be cast well ahead of time and can definitely benefit from the Bead boost. I'm assuming Shil will only let us throw one per round?
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Leonis



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:00 pm

Well there we go - our plan.

Forcecage the dragon (in front of him) - we are still in a cave. Then put his exit to be a prismatic wall. So if he really wants to try and escape he can go through the prismatic wall.

Then we use the forcecage to launch spells at him. Since we are not in a forcecage we can stay fairly spread out.

Ranged spells and gareth (and others) will heal and remove debilitating effects.

Step 1 Think
Step 2 Plan
Step 3 ....
Step 4 Profit!!!!
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Nameless



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:08 pm

Gareth wrote:
Well there we go - our plan.

Forcecage the dragon (in front of him) - we are still in a cave. Then put his exit to be a prismatic wall. So if he really wants to try and escape he can go through the prismatic wall.

I had thought Gargantuan was larger, but if he is only Gargantuan in size (20 ft x 15 ft) then he would fit in the forcecage (20x20). If Nameless hit him first with a Dimentional Anchor, he couldn't escape it.

Unless he can somehow shrink or polymorph to a 1/2" size. Then he could pass the bars. But Polymorph can only get him down to 6" and if he's powerful enough to cast Shapechange (9th) we're screwed anyway. But it's highly unlikely he's that powerful of a caster.

We wouldn't really need to use Prismatic wall then. But we should definitely have a second forcecage. A second Anchor would seem advisable as well.

If we don't need to use PW, then Nameless can take Moment of Prescience, which will give him a +15 on essentially any roll. With his +9 on initiative, it should guarantee that he would go first in initiative.
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Leonis



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:39 pm

There we go.

I don't remember offhand, but if Insight is not personal then i wil lcast it on you.
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Nameless



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:52 pm

Gareth wrote:
There we go.

I don't remember offhand, but if Insight is not personal then i wil lcast it on you.

If it's divine insight, then it is personal only and it just gives a boost to a skill check. Nothing Nameless is likely to need to make a skill check on, is low enough for it likely to matter.
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:38 pm

Nameless wrote:
Fire Seeds - Acorn Grenades are 6th lv and are a touch attack. They do have a very limited AOE (5', 1 pt/d6), but I'm not sure if the creature struck takes both the d6 and the splash damage. Shil?

The writing's a little imprecise. I'll go with the d6 damage for the creature struck directly and the splash damage for anything within 10 ft, just because that fits splash weapons/spells in general.

Quote :
That is a good idea. Six should be able to throw the fire seeds and they have a 10min/lvl duration. So they can be cast well ahead of time and can definitely benefit from the Bead boost. I'm assuming Shil will only let us throw one per round?

Correct. Luckily one acorn can do 15d6, or 19d6 if you use a Bead when creating them.

Quote :
I had thought Gargantuan was larger, but if he is only Gargantuan in size (20 ft x 15 ft) then he would fit in the forcecage (20x20). If Nameless hit him first with a Dimentional Anchor, he couldn't escape it.

Nah. It's 80 feet long. The 20 ft x 20 ft (square bases in 3.5e, remember?) is the space it occupies on the battlemat and for convenience. The dragon's neck and tail extend well beyond the 20 ft (it's body is actually bigger too) so a Forcecage cast on it would fail automatically.

Quote :
If we don't need to use PW, then Nameless can take Moment of Prescience, which will give him a +15 on essentially any roll. With his +9 on initiative, it should guarantee that he would go first in initiative.

Moment of Insight is usable on an attack roll, opposed ability or skill check, or save. Not on initiative.

Gareth wrote:
Step 1 Think
Step 2 Plan
Step 3 ....
Step 4 Profit!!!!

No, it's actually:

Step 1 Think
Step 2 Plan
Step 3 ....
Step 4 Sacrifice!!!!

Oh, wait - you weren't speaking for Xagygyrag, right?
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Leonis



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:58 pm

Admin wrote:
Nah. It's 80 feet long. The 20 ft x 20 ft (square bases in 3.5e, remember?) is the space it occupies on the battlemat and for convenience. The dragon's neck and tail extend well beyond the 20 ft (it's body is actually bigger too) so a Forcecage cast on it would fail automatically.

Well can forcecage be used as a wall? So it just can't bypass tht? Or should we do a wll of force?
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:05 pm

Gareth wrote:
Well can forcecage be used as a wall? So it just can't bypass tht? Or should we do a wll of force?

You can just create a Forcecage in an open space between the dragon and you, and if it's in a tunnel, that would block it sufficiently that it couldn't get past (due to its size). A Wall of Force could do the same thing, but the problem is that it would block line of effect for spells if large enough. As long as Nameless uses a Forcecage with bars, it doesn't block LoE.
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Nameless



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:16 pm

Gareth wrote:
Well can forcecage be used as a wall? So it just can't bypass tht? Or should we do a wll of force?

With solid walls, forcecage only covers 10x10. So it's kind of useless for that. A wall of force we can't shoot through.

We'll just go with the initial plan. Put the forcecage around us, since that will prevent the dragon from going melee with us. Hopefully the 20x20 forcecage will block off one end of the passage way. If not Korm or Luna will need to put up a wall of stone after Nameless puts up the prismatic wall and hits the dragon with the dimentional anchor.
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Six of Six



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:38 pm

In normal DnD logic we would have to kill the dragon then find the humaniod sized chest. In it would be, 16,000gp, 14 gems and no magic items (Rolling on the treasure charts in the DMG for 20th level). Of course by DnD logic the drug den should have been a pushover. Wait a minute, it was.

Sadly force is the only thing that seems to make these dragons argreeable, so lets min/max a bit.

Its a least a wyrm (pg 70 in MM) with maximized breath and area effect. It has serval magic items, guessing one of them does dim door. The base dragon has 459 hp. Add 25% from shit, so 574 or 666 because Shil is evil. I didn't consider and contingencies, the spell. At 574 it would take 164d6 of damage to bring it to zero, eleven spells at our standard caster levels. Hopefully he will be defenseless and like to pick his nose alot.

I don't think you guys give Shil his props about his builds, so lets try this another way. Ask yourself, If you were a 20th level black dragon with; access to the core DnD books, the spell and magic compendium, with a few things from the dragonomicon, and epic, ritual magic, with the resources of a 20th level black dragon to buy them. What would your build be. How's this plan look now.

But if you insist.

Druid Attack or why aren't we all druids.
Read earthquake, pg 225 PHB. Luna with an assist from Korm could deal with this fellow by themselves. Two figures would set the dragon's overconfidence to high and before it knew what happened...pow.

Earthquake wouldn't be the only spell used but in conjuction with the other massive crap druids dish out.
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:44 pm

Six of Six wrote:
Its a least a wyrm (pg 70 in MM) with maximized breath and area effect. It has serval magic items, guessing one of them does dim door.

It did cast Dimension Door, but it could have such an item too.

Quote :
The base dragon has 459 hp. Add 25% from shit, so 574 or 666 because Shil is evil.

Twisted Evil

Quote :
I didn't consider and contingencies, the spell. At 574 it would take 164d6 of damage to bring it to zero, eleven spells at our standard caster levels. Hopefully he will be defenseless and like to pick his nose alot.

Very Happy

Quote :
I don't think you guys give Shil his props about his builds, so lets try this another way.


Really? I think you guys give me props about the monsters' effectiveness a lot of the time. What I think sometimes goes unnoticed is how much restraint I use. No, really - anything you run into, including Xagygyrag, could be much, much worse!

Quote :
Ask yourself, If you were a 20th level black dragon with; access to the core DnD books, the spell and magic compendium, with a few things from the dragonomicon, and epic, ritual magic, with the resources of a 20th level black dragon to buy them. What would your build be. How's this plan look now.

See above about restraint. He'll probably still murder you guys, but it won't be a sure thing, like it could be. The nice thing, however, with this situation, is that I can just make shit up which fits the flavor and throw away the rulebook. Well, okay - the nice thing for me.

Quote :
But if you insist.

Druid Attack or why aren't we all druids.
Read earthquake, pg 225 PHB. Luna with an assist from Korm could deal with this fellow by themselves. Two figures would set the dragon's overconfidence to high and before it knew what happened...pow.

Earthquake wouldn't be the only spell used but in conjuction with the other massive crap druids dish out.

I think you're overestimating its effectiveness in this situation. You could collapse a tunnel or cavern on the dragon, doing 8d6 (Ref half) damage and pinning it for a while, but considering its size and strength it could possibly just pull itself free, or DDoor out if needed. Of course, that could buy you time to pound on it, and buying yourselves time is really, really important here.

BTW, you'd have to be careful with an earthquake spell. It's got an 80 ft radius, and you do need line of effect to the starting point, so you need more than 80 feet between you guys and the starting point. It helps that it's shapeable, but you could easily bring down the roof on yourselves. Come to think of it, if you're trying to survive and escape, it might actually be a good way to keep the dragon away for a moment. Drop the roof on it and yourselves, eat the damage and DDoor the hell away.
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Leonis



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:46 pm

John - I meant the bar forcecage which shil said should work. So when we encounter the situation we can decide either around us or blocking the dragon. I would rather him be in cage then us. Remember - us in a cage means AOE heaven for him

Dave - we always acknowledge shils dementedness when it comes to monster building.
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Nameless



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:11 pm

Six of Six wrote:
In normal DnD logic we would have to kill the dragon then find the humaniod sized chest. In it would be, 16,000gp, 14 gems and no magic items (Rolling on the treasure charts in the DMG for 20th level). Of course by DnD logic the drug den should have been a pushover. Wait a minute, it was.

Sadly force is the only thing that seems to make these dragons argreeable, so lets min/max a bit.

Its a least a wyrm (pg 70 in MM) with maximized breath and area effect. It has serval magic items, guessing one of them does dim door. The base dragon has 459 hp. Add 25% from shit, so 574 or 666 because Shil is evil. I didn't consider and contingencies, the spell. At 574 it would take 164d6 of damage to bring it to zero, eleven spells at our standard caster levels. Hopefully he will be defenseless and like to pick his nose alot.

I don't think you guys give Shil his props about his builds, so lets try this another way. Ask yourself, If you were a 20th level black dragon with; access to the core DnD books, the spell and magic compendium, with a few things from the dragonomicon, and epic, ritual magic, with the resources of a 20th level black dragon to buy them. What would your build be. How's this plan look now.

But if you insist.

Druid Attack or why aren't we all druids.
Read earthquake, pg 225 PHB. Luna with an assist from Korm could deal with this fellow by themselves. Two figures would set the dragon's overconfidence to high and before it knew what happened...pow.

Earthquake wouldn't be the only spell used but in conjuction with the other massive crap druids dish out.

Fine Dave. What the hell should we do? I'd love an actual constructive suggestion as to something we can do. Most of your comment never seem to amount to much more than "You're clueless and no idea how to do things."

If you've figured it all out, then please tell the rest of us. I'd love someone else to come up with suggestions as to what to do. Don't just tell us we're clueless, offer an alternative. I'd love to have a better choice.

Nobody in Argonessen is going to be happy to see us. Nobody is gonna go "Gee you're such swell people! Here's everything you need. And we made lemonade for you!"

We're going to get jumped and attacked by powerful foes any where we go here. EVERYTHING we run into here, is going to be powerful and nasty to fight. About the only real choice we have here, is which group of powerful nasty foes we're going to fight. And from what we have learned this is supposed to be the place most likely to have the information we need.
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Nameless



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:24 pm

Gareth wrote:
John - I meant the bar forcecage which shil said should work. So when we encounter the situation we can decide either around us or blocking the dragon. I would rather him be in cage then us. Remember - us in a cage means AOE heaven for him

Dave - we always acknowledge shils dementedness when it comes to monster building.

With Protection from Energy, Greater Blink and other defensive spells. I think we can come out on top in an exchange of AOEs. Especially if we keep dispelling any protections he puts up. It might be worthwhile putting up some secondary walls of some sort in order to minimize the number of us that get hit.

We've got 3 primary casters and two secondary casters. So we're getting a lot more actions a round, especially with quickens. I'm working on crunching the numbers for what Nameless's load out can be.

He is going to to kill at least one of us a round if he can melee with us. His breath weapon requires multiple rounds to recharge, +3 more if he maximizes it, -1 for every Extra Breath feat he's got. That's a bunch of actions for us.
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:35 pm

Admin wrote:
I think you're overestimating its effectiveness in this situation. You could collapse a tunnel or cavern on the dragon, doing 8d6 (Ref half) damage and pinning it for a while, but considering its size and strength it could possibly just pull itself free, or DDoor out if needed. Of course, that could buy you time to pound on it, and buying yourselves time is really, really important here.

BTW, you'd have to be careful with an earthquake spell. It's got an 80 ft radius, and you do need line of effect to the starting point, so you need more than 80 feet between you guys and the starting point. It helps that it's shapeable, but you could easily bring down the roof on yourselves. Come to think of it, if you're trying to survive and escape, it might actually be a good way to keep the dragon away for a moment. Drop the roof on it and yourselves, eat the damage and DDoor the hell away.

Earthquake

Cave, Cavern, or Tunnel
The spell collapses the roof, dealing 8d6 points of bludgeoning damage to any creature caught under the cave-in (Reflex DC 15 half) and pinning that creature beneath the rubble (see below). An earthquake cast on the roof of a very large cavern could also endanger those outside the actual area but below the falling debris.

Pinned beneath Rubble
Any creature pinned beneath rubble takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage per minute while pinned. If a pinned character falls unconscious, he or she must make a DC 15 Constitution check or take 1d6 points of lethal damage each minute thereafter until freed or dead.

How does a creature become unpinned? The description doesn't seem to offer anyway for it to become unpinned. Automatic death with no way out doesn't seem to make any sense. I had thought the dc 15 reflex save prevented being pinned, but that doesn't seem to be the case re-reading it.

The other thing to consider is that we don't want to destroy the place, since we don't know where the info we need is.
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:49 pm

Globe of Invulnerability can protect us from most of his attack spells, since it blocks up to 4th lv spells.

Energy Immunity - Wiz 7, Druid 6 and we can laugh at his breath weapon (unless he's got energy substitution and/or admixture). But if he had admixture, we'd be dead already.


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Registration date : 2006-09-11

PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:50 pm

Nameless wrote:
Globe of Invulnerability can protect us from most of his attack spells, since it blocks up to 4th lv spells.


That would help in many ways but we cant heal ourselves then on spells of 4th or lower (means gareth cant heal at all)
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   

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