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 Dragon Slaying Planning

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Leonis



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:22 pm

Luna wrote:
Once again... we do NOT have to do this!

How much can it do in one round?
If I can take it ... I can dim door as well.

But... once again... I think we aren't supposed to fight this thing!
We are fighting this thing or you may never ever ever complain about treasure. In fact, if we don't you have to give up all your magic items and your money and your house. You have to take the feat that makes it impossible for you to ever get treasure. Become an Asthetic druid (which btw is very very powerful).

Otherwise - change to tree and fight Smile
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Leonis



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:24 pm

Admin wrote:
back, then you don't now what happens. And if he is brought back, he doesn't remember anything. This has happened to a couple of paladins before, you know.

Except Gareth is extra special paladin - he is part of the prophecy sunny And he is a PC instead of an NPC cheers
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Luna



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:14 pm

AH... Luna does not HAVE to do anything... and I was pretty sure Paladins were supposed to be very limited on wealth/treasure/Magic Items!!

Oh... I want to dim door on a move action too...!!!!
But that probably one of those slippery rougue/monk things which makes them so objectionables! RATS!!!
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Admin


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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:41 pm

Luna wrote:
AH... Luna does not HAVE to do anything...

We know that. Which is why Gareth is willing to fight a gargantuan black dragon but not Luna Smile

Quote :
and I was pretty sure Paladins were supposed to be very limited on wealth/treasure/Magic Items!!

That was in 2e. And have you met Gareth?

Quote :
Oh... I want to dim door on a move action too...!!!!
But that probably one of those slippery rougue/monk things which makes them so objectionables! RATS!!!

You get to cast 7th level spells. Six gets to dimension door as a move action. I don't think he's getting the better deal. Now when Korm gets to dimension door as a move action - then you can kill him.
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Leonis



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:56 am

Luna wrote:
AH... Luna does not HAVE to do anything... and I was pretty sure Paladins were supposed to be very limited on wealth/treasure/Magic Items!!

Omar...errr...I mean Gareth is not limited to certain magic items. THat was a silly rule in 2e (even before I played/liked paladins) that almost no DM enforced. (Armor, boots, helmet, cloak, bracers, gloves, two rings, necklace, weapon, shield, belt = 12)
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Admin
Admin


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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:06 am

Gareth wrote:
THat was a silly rule in 2e (even before I played/liked paladins) that almost no DM enforced. (Armor, boots, helmet, cloak, bracers, gloves, two rings, necklace, weapon, shield, belt = 12)

Don't assume. I know lots of DMs enforced that rule. And 12 items was a pretty good number in a lot of campaigns.
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Luna



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:50 pm

Every DM I ever played with did!

Not that it seemed to make a big difference... since we never had very much and were rather low level even after years and years and years of playing!
LOL!!
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Admin
Admin


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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:55 pm

Luna wrote:
Every DM I ever played with did!

Not that it seemed to make a big difference... since we never had very much and were rather low level even after years and years and years of playing!
LOL!!

Exactly. It required a seriously magic-heavy campaign for that to be a real restriction, and if you were in a magic-heavy campaign, being able to have 12 items meant you usually had very good ones. It wasn't much of a restriction.
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Leonis



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Sat Mar 15, 2008 7:50 pm

Admin wrote:
Gareth wrote:
THat was a silly rule in 2e (even before I played/liked paladins) that almost no DM enforced. (Armor, boots, helmet, cloak, bracers, gloves, two rings, necklace, weapon, shield, belt = 12)

Don't assume. I know lots of DMs enforced that rule. And 12 items was a pretty good number in a lot of campaigns.
Don't assume what? I never said "no DMs enforced it". I said almonst none did. I have had many and none have did. They also rarely enforced the tithing, but they did make hte paladin run around helping ever grandma cross the street -- hence i hate playing paladins - just really no control for the player.

Anyhow, even if that rule was still part of 3.x, I would have to say Luna violates a few of the druidic ways of life (being natural) Smile

But who cares about that - lets keep planning the dragon conquest.
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Admin
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:03 pm

Gareth wrote:
But who cares about that - lets keep planning the dragon conquest.

Not to worry. I am.

Oh, wait - you meant conquest of the dragon, not conquest by the dragon, right?

My bad.

*looks at dragon stats*

I take that back. Your bad.
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Admin
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:11 pm

Check out the thread Dave just started called "Spec That Dragon". It's designed for you guys to let all your paranoia show. Sorry, all your noia show.
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Nameless



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:01 pm

So do we want to go with "plan A" or some variation there of? Or some form of Shil's approach to taking down the dragon?

If Plan A, do we want the forcecage around us or in front of us? It is dismissable, so we can turn it off if we really want to either way.
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:36 am

Nameless wrote:
So do we want to go with "plan A" or some variation there of? Or some form of Shil's approach to taking down the dragon?

If Plan A, do we want the forcecage around us or in front of us? It is dismissable, so we can turn it off if we really want to either way.

All I know is that if you guys follow my approach and it doesn't work like I described, I don't want to hear complaints about it. Just remember, that was me giving you a hypothetical example. That's all.

And yes - I am covering my ass! Though (as Julia already mentioned) a fat lot of good it'll do me Smile
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Leonis



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:41 am

Nameless wrote:
So do we want to go with "plan A" or some variation there of? Or some form of Shil's approach to taking down the dragon?

If Plan A, do we want the forcecage around us or in front of us? It is dismissable, so we can turn it off if we really want to either way.

Plan A - Use the forcecage to block the dragons path but not lock us into a bubble

Plan B - Lock us into a bubble, and pray to your respective supreme being

We can fill in more details to each plan.

We should buff out for both ranged and melee attacking, but only do our ranged plan until we figure out we need more Smile
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Nameless



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:05 pm

Shil, I know we can shoot through the bars on a Forcecage, but that's usually presented as in shooting into or out of the FC through one set of bars. If we have two sets of the bars between us and the dragon, is that going to present problems for us? Are we going to have to roll to see if we got the detonate on contact fireball through both sets or if we're shooting at an angle, etc...?
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Admin
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:28 pm

Nameless wrote:
Shil, I know we can shoot through the bars on a Forcecage, but that's usually presented as in shooting into or out of the FC through one set of bars. If we have two sets of the bars between us and the dragon, is that going to present problems for us? Are we going to have to roll to see if we got the detonate on contact fireball through both sets or if we're shooting at an angle, etc...?

Good question, and I'm glad you asked now. Creatures already get cover for attacks going through one set of bars, and while getting spells through is fine, tossing objects through two sets of bars should be next to impossible. Hmm, lemme see...

Okay, I got it. I'll treat it as providing improved cover (+8 to AC, +4 to Ref saves vs. attacks originating on other side of cage, creatures benefiting from it get improved evasion) to creatures on either side. Ranged attacks which have to pass through both sets of bars (rays, tossed fire seeds, etc.) would also take a 50% miss chance.

In short, there are significant defensive benefits to having the two sets of bars between you and Big G, but it will severely hurt your offense too.
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Nameless



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:46 pm

Admin wrote:
Nameless wrote:
Shil, I know we can shoot through the bars on a Forcecage, but that's usually presented as in shooting into or out of the FC through one set of bars. If we have two sets of the bars between us and the dragon, is that going to present problems for us? Are we going to have to roll to see if we got the detonate on contact fireball through both sets or if we're shooting at an angle, etc...?

Good question, and I'm glad you asked now. Creatures already get cover for attacks going through one set of bars, and while getting spells through is fine, tossing objects through two sets of bars should be next to impossible. Hmm, lemme see...

Okay, I got it. I'll treat it as providing improved cover (+8 to AC, +4 to Ref saves vs. attacks originating on other side of cage, creatures benefiting from it get improved evasion) to creatures on either side. Ranged attacks which have to pass through both sets of bars (rays, tossed fire seeds, etc.) would also take a 50% miss chance.

In short, there are significant defensive benefits to having the two sets of bars between you and Big G, but it will severely hurt your offense too.

At least according to the spell, the cover the cage provides is only vs weapons.

Quote :
You canít attack a creature in a barred cage with a weapon unless the weapon can fit between the gaps. Even against such weapons (including arrows and similar ranged attacks), a creature in the barred cage has cover. All spells and breath weapons can pass through the gaps in the bars.

I agree that it is certainly reasonable to impose some penalties for shooting through two sets since the gaps are only 1/2", but I'm not really sure it should qualify for improved cover vs true area effects like breath weapons, cone of cold or effect spells like Firestorm/flamestrike.

Fireball/Scorching Ray/Melfs sort of spells are the spell that would have the most problems and should probably be affected as if it provided imp cover. Fireseed since it has to be thrown, would certainly fit.

I think the key is, if it is something that "shoots" out from the caster and has to have an uninterrupted line of effect, because it "activates" on contact vs something that completely fills it's area of effect.
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:56 pm

Nameless wrote:
At least according to the spell, the cover the cage provides is only vs weapons.

I agree that it is certainly reasonable to impose some penalties for shooting through two sets, but I'm not really sure it should qualify for improved cover vs true area effects like breath weapons, cone of cold or effect spells like Firestorm/flamestrike.

Fireball/Scorching Ray/Melfs sort of spells are the spell that would have the most problems and should probably be affected as if it provided imp cover. Fireseed since it has to be thrown, would certainly fit.

I think the key is, if it is something that "shoots" out from the caster and has to have an uninterrupted line of effect, because it "activates" on contact vs something that completely fills it's area of effect.

Fire Storm and Flame Strike wouldn't be affected anyway, since they would be originating on the opposite side of the cage anyway, so it wouldn't be in the way at all.

But, in view of what you mentioned, how about this:

You can't attack with weapons of any kind through both sets of bars, even if a weapon can reach all the way.

The double set of bars provide cover (+2 to Ref saves) versus magical effects which originate on the opposite side and have to pass through, as long as they don't require an attack roll (breath weapons, Cone of Cold, etc).

If the magical effect requires an attack roll or has some component which must physically pass through both sets of bars (Orb spells, rays, thrown fireseeds, etc.), then the target gains +8 to AC versus such attacks or a 50% miss chance for effects without an attack roll (Fireball, because the bead must shoot through the bars).
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Nameless



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:00 pm

Admin wrote:
Fire Storm and Flame Strike wouldn't be affected anyway, since they would be originating on the opposite side of the cage anyway, so it wouldn't be in the way at all.

But, in view of what you mentioned, how about this:

You can't attack with weapons of any kind through both sets of bars, even if a weapon can reach all the way.

The double set of bars provide cover (+2 to Ref saves) versus magical effects which originate on the opposite side and have to pass through, as long as they don't require an attack roll (breath weapons, Cone of Cold, etc).

If the magical effect requires an attack roll or has some component which must physically pass through both sets of bars (Orb spells, rays, thrown fireseeds, etc.), then the target gains +8 to AC versus such attacks or a 50% miss chance for effects without an attack roll (Fireball, because the bead must shoot through the bars).

You can't use Flamestrike or Firestorm if there's a solid object between you and the target point of the spell, if I understand things correctly. It's that sort of thing that I was referring to in terms of the spell being "blocked".

Your proposal seem reasonable to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:13 pm

Nameless wrote:
You can't use Flamestrike or Firestorm if there's a solid object between you and the target point of the spell, if I understand things correctly. It's that sort of thing that I was referring to in terms of the spell being "blocked".

Since the one set of bars don't block line of effect, I'll say that two sets don't either. So just like you'd be able to hit something on the other side of the Forcecage with a Dispel Magic, you'll be able to hit it with a Flame Strike or a Firestorm too.

Quote :
Your proposal seem reasonable to me.

Cool. We'll run with that then.
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Leonis



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:27 pm

Forcecage up high (from ceiling to about 1/3 way down).
Forcecage down low (from floor to about 1/3 way up)
Empty space (1/3) in between. Ranged gets through fine, dragon is stuck.

OR
Forcecage up high (ceiling to 1/3 way down)
Forcecage middle (from where it ended to 1/3 way before hitting the floor)
empty space from floor to 1/3 way up.

What's that mean. Big fat dragon is stuck and can't get through, while Six can make spring attacks to his hearts content Very Happy
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Nameless



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:37 pm

Gareth wrote:
Forcecage up high (from ceiling to about 1/3 way down).
Forcecage down low (from floor to about 1/3 way up)
Empty space (1/3) in between. Ranged gets through fine, dragon is stuck.

OR
Forcecage up high (ceiling to 1/3 way down)
Forcecage middle (from where it ended to 1/3 way before hitting the floor)
empty space from floor to 1/3 way up.

What's that mean. Big fat dragon is stuck and can't get through, while Six can make spring attacks to his hearts content Very Happy

You don't get to size Forcecage. It's either a 10' cube or a 20' cube. So your plan is dependent on having a passageway 60'. Which offers the dragon way too much space and is too hard to seal off. Prismatic Wall won't cover the other end.
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:41 pm

Nameless wrote:
You don't get to size Forcecage. It's either a 10' cube or a 20' cube. So your plan is dependent on having a passageway 60'. Which offers the dragon way too much space and is too hard to seal off. Prismatic Wall won't cover the other end.

Right. If you had a passageway that size the dragon could easily walk past the Forcecage. While it is pretty long, for combat purposes it occupies a 20 ft square. And it can squeeze its way through a 10 ft x 10 ft space. So if/when you use the Forcecage, you want it to not have 10 ft of clearance between it and a wall on either side.
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Nameless



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:53 pm

The other consideration is that while the dragon is arrogant, it is not stupid. We have to make things look sufficiently attractive and easy, until we can lower the boom and trap it.

Nameless only has so many actions and I'm not sure if Six is good enough at UMD to be able to use the high level stuff like Forcecage. A lot of the plan as currently constituted depends on spells only Nameless can cast. The dragon is not going to be sitting there while we toss up spells to pin it in and every action we give it is going to hurt us badly. So we need the basics of the plan implemented in no more than 2 rounds.

In any case we need as high a caster level vs this dragon as we can get. Nameless can hit 17th and scrolls for reasons of time and cost are going to be a lot less on average.

We do NOT want it getting away. The last thing we want is a pissed off Wyrm that's going to be hunting us down at a bad time.
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Leonis



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:04 pm

How about the earthquake idea? I think that was a good suggestion to drop some rocks on its head. At worst it will do a lot of damage, at best it will do lots of damage and trap it. Then we silence it (do we have a way to increase the level/save of a spell?). I don't want to silence it for spells, I just don't want us to hear it say "i give up, mercy" - cause then I would feel bad about killing it for the skin on its body.

<looks around> What i only play a paladin, doesn't mean i AM a paladin.
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