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 Dragon Slaying Planning

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Six of Six



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:51 pm

Nameless wrote:
Six of Six wrote:
In normal DnD logic we would have to kill the dragon then find the humaniod sized chest. In it would be, 16,000gp, 14 gems and no magic items (Rolling on the treasure charts in the DMG for 20th level). Of course by DnD logic the drug den should have been a pushover. Wait a minute, it was.

Sadly force is the only thing that seems to make these dragons argreeable, so lets min/max a bit.

Its a least a wyrm (pg 70 in MM) with maximized breath and area effect. It has serval magic items, guessing one of them does dim door. The base dragon has 459 hp. Add 25% from shit, so 574 or 666 because Shil is evil. I didn't consider and contingencies, the spell. At 574 it would take 164d6 of damage to bring it to zero, eleven spells at our standard caster levels. Hopefully he will be defenseless and like to pick his nose alot.

I don't think you guys give Shil his props about his builds, so lets try this another way. Ask yourself, If you were a 20th level black dragon with; access to the core DnD books, the spell and magic compendium, with a few things from the dragonomicon, and epic, ritual magic, with the resources of a 20th level black dragon to buy them. What would your build be. How's this plan look now.

But if you insist.

Druid Attack or why aren't we all druids.
Read earthquake, pg 225 PHB. Luna with an assist from Korm could deal with this fellow by themselves. Two figures would set the dragon's overconfidence to high and before it knew what happened...pow.

Earthquake wouldn't be the only spell used but in conjuction with the other massive crap druids dish out.

Fine Dave. What the hell should we do? I'd love an actual constructive suggestion as to something we can do. Most of your comment never seem to amount to much more than "You're clueless and no idea how to do things."

If you've figured it all out, then please tell the rest of us. I'd love someone else to come up with suggestions as to what to do. Don't just tell us we're clueless, offer an alternative. I'd love to have a better choice.

Nobody in Argonessen is going to be happy to see us. Nobody is gonna go "Gee you're such swell people! Here's everything you need. And we made lemonade for you!"

We're going to get jumped and attacked by powerful foes any where we go here. EVERYTHING we run into here, is going to be powerful and nasty to fight. About the only real choice we have here, is which group of powerful nasty foes we're going to fight. And from what we have learned this is supposed to be the place most likely to have the information we need.

Alright.
First: Look at what Shil's done and apply it for us. We do have to look at everything that is going on not just the things appling to our characters.
Ex: Big X had many magical auras on him, two of which were spells. The dim door ability is likely from an item. Have we seen this before (red lich).

Second: Take a look at the earthquake spell again. I belive Luna can cast two. On a '1' it's pinned, no voice, no movement, no spells. Unless it can burrow it is stuck. We are in a cave type enviroment. This is the (mis)use of the goofy suffocation rules, but that's not what I was looking at. With neither spell resistance or save, all creatures on the ground can neither move or attack for one round. It has an effect range of 80ft. Fireseeds have an attack range of 100 ft. We would need to dimensional anchor and silence the area then throw lots of fire seeds, with one of us on spell overwatch. That would be waiting to disrupt a spell with a seed. At 19th level that would be 8 seeds. Add a few for good measure or just flame strike it. I like artillery, explosions, helpless enemies and drinking coffee.
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:58 pm

Nameless wrote:
He is going to to kill at least one of us a round if he can melee with us. His breath weapon requires multiple rounds to recharge, +3 more if he maximizes it, -1 for every Extra Breath feat he's got. That's a bunch of actions for us.

Yeah, actions are a lifesaver here. The fact that you have five PCs each taking a round of actions to the dragon's one is something you guys need to milk for all it's worth.

Quote :
How does a creature become unpinned? The description doesn't seem to offer anyway for it to become unpinned. Automatic death with no way out doesn't seem to make any sense. I had thought the dc 15 reflex save prevented being pinned, but that doesn't seem to be the case re-reading it.

As written, there's no way to become unpinned. I'm fine with allowing that for human-sized and smaller creatures, but for larger ones I'll provide progressively larger chances for them to get out. Something like a gargantuan dragon, which can lift dozens of tons, will be out relatively quickly.

Quote :
The other thing to consider is that we don't want to destroy the place, since we don't know where the info we need is.

From what you've seen of the place already, it's huge and very solid. There's essentially no chance that a single casting - or even a couple of them - of Earthquake would wreck the entire place.

Six of Six wrote:
Alright.
First: Look at what Shil's done and apply it for us. We do have to look at everything that is going on not just the things appling to our characters.
Ex: Big X had many magical auras on him, two of which were spells. The dim door ability is likely from an item. Have we seen this before (red lich).

I think I mentioned earlier that the Dimension Door was cast by the dragon as a spell.

Quote :
Second: Take a look at the earthquake spell again. I belive Luna can cast two. On a '1' it's pinned, no voice, no movement, no spells.

Pinned says nothing about being unable to speak. It would be able to do so, which means it could cast verbal spells. As noted above, a gargantuan dragon will get out fast. I'd say maybe a full round of actions to get free, two at most.

Quote :
Unless it can burrow it is stuck. We are in a cave type enviroment. This is the (mis)use of the goofy suffocation rules, but that's not what I was looking at. With neither spell resistance or save, all creatures on the ground can neither move or attack for one round.


True. It can, however, cast spells or use its breath weapon or activate magical items.

Quote :
It has an effect range of 80ft. Fireseeds have an attack range of 100 ft.

During the time the dragon is pinned, it'll probably be getting total cover from the fire seeds.

Quote :
We would need to dimensional anchor and silence the area then throw lots of fire seeds, with one of us on spell overwatch. That would be waiting to disrupt a spell with a seed. At 19th level that would be 8 seeds. Add a few for good measure or just flame strike it. I like artillery, explosions, helpless enemies and drinking coffee.

Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:05 pm

Nameless wrote:
Energy Immunity - Wiz 7, Druid 6 and we can laugh at his breath weapon (unless he's got energy substitution and/or admixture). But if he had admixture, we'd be dead already.

I'm not allowing that spell in this game. Complete immunity and 24 hrs is too much for me, and I think Resist Energy and Protection from Energy provide enough benefits while still requiring tactical judgement. And I don't think you guys want the dragon casting it Smile
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Nameless



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:12 pm

Six of Six wrote:
Alright.
First: Look at what Shil's done and apply it for us. We do have to look at everything that is going on not just the things appling to our characters.
Ex: Big X had many magical auras on him, two of which were spells. The dim door ability is likely from an item. Have we seen this before (red lich).

Shil said he cast dim door. Also he's a 13th lvl arcane caster. If it's an item or not it doesn't really make a difference either way though.

The two auras were almost certainly - Shield and Mage Armor (possibly greater).

Six of Six wrote:
Second: Take a look at the earthquake spell again. I belive Luna can cast two. On a '1' it's pinned, no voice, no movement, no spells. Unless it can burrow it is stuck. We are in a cave type enviroment. This is the (mis)use of the goofy suffocation rules, but that's not what I was looking at. With neither spell resistance or save, all creatures on the ground can neither move or attack for one round. It has an effect range of 80ft. Fireseeds have an attack range of 100 ft. We would need to dimensional anchor and silence the area then throw lots of fire seeds, with one of us on spell overwatch. That would be waiting to disrupt a spell with a seed. At 19th level that would be 8 seeds. Add a few for good measure or just flame strike it. I like artillery, explosions, helpless enemies and drinking coffee.

I don't think Shil is going to let us get away with a cheap shot kill on a dragon like this.

I think you're misunderstanding how the Fire Seeds works. Assuming the Bead buff with the acorn touch attacks, Korm and Luna get 19d6 worth of damage. The up to 4 seeds, lets you divide that damage among the 4 seeds (say 3 with 5d6 and 1 with 4d6). You don't get four 19d6 seeds.

You only get 8 with the berries. They only have a 5' range, but they would give us 8d6 + 8x19 or (36+152) or 94 after save for half. Which is better average damage than the 19d6 (67 roughly).
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Nameless



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:19 pm

Admin wrote:
Nameless wrote:
Energy Immunity - Wiz 7, Druid 6 and we can laugh at his breath weapon (unless he's got energy substitution and/or admixture). But if he had admixture, we'd be dead already.

I'm not allowing that spell in this game. Complete immunity and 24 hrs is too much for me, and I think Resist Energy and Protection from Energy provide enough benefits while still requiring tactical judgement. And I don't think you guys want the dragon casting it Smile

Given our likely edge in caster level vs it and 3 of us getting to toss GDMs. I'd take that exchange. But whatever.

How about "Hide From Dragons" then?
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Leonis



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:21 pm

Six of Six wrote:
Alright.
First: Look at what Shil's done and apply it for us. We do have to look at everything that is going on not just the things appling to our characters.
Ex: Big X had many magical auras on him, two of which were spells. The dim door ability is likely from an item. Have we seen this before (red lich).
Elaborate please. Big X only had two auras - we are pretty sure it is shield and GMA. The dragon may have a dim door item, but we shouldn't assume cause the lich did the dragon will - it is very anti shil to use the sme thing over and over.

Your plan sounds good. Would you mind bullet pointing it?
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Six of Six



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:27 pm

I was going to go off a little about playstyles, this campaign, and other items but I will just put forth another action plan.

Third: Go back to Io'lokar and talk to everybody. Listen to what they say and don't say. See if anyone wants to travel with us to Khorvaire and meet the heads of state. Keep the meeting with the four plus one kingdoms. Tell them everything that we are not sworn to secercy over. Listen closely to what they say and don't say. See if they want to send anyone to Io'lokar. Go back to the city. Talk to everyone. Listen closely to what they say and don't say. Hang out in the city until called by the Chamber or the Khorvaire Council. That would be the newly formed Khorvaire Council if they know what good for them. From all of this somebody is going to say something that will make our path clear. However this fateful meeting may not be to, buy or for us.

Shil isn't Mark Bonn. He has lots of action going on we never see but he keeps it consistent. He dosen't leave clues to nowhere, rather we see the tip of the iceberg from the NPC's we meet. Because things are consistent in the background, we can extraploate meaning from the foreground. I can deal with this kind of activity more than ***deleted for editorial content***
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:30 pm

Gareth wrote:
Six of Six wrote:
Alright.
First: Look at what Shil's done and apply it for us. We do have to look at everything that is going on not just the things appling to our characters.
Ex: Big X had many magical auras on him, two of which were spells. The dim door ability is likely from an item. Have we seen this before (red lich).
Elaborate please. Big X only had two auras - we are pretty sure it is shield and GMA. The dragon may have a dim door item, but we shouldn't assume cause the lich did the dragon will - it is very anti shil to use the sme thing over and over.

Your plan sounds good. Would you mind bullet pointing it?

I am remembering Shil saying the dragon had more auras two of which were spells. I didn't catch how the dragon dim doored. Was it a spell or a command word or something else.
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Nameless



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:34 pm

Gareth wrote:
Nameless wrote:
Globe of Invulnerability can protect us from most of his attack spells, since it blocks up to 4th lv spells.

That would help in many ways but we cant heal ourselves then on spells of 4th or lower (means gareth cant heal at all)

Globe is a 10' radius which means Nameless and/or you can move to one side or the other if you need to cast a spell.

The idea was that with Energy Immunity and protection from most of his spells we'd not be taking any damage. But even with out EI, GoI doesn't stop the operation of spells previously in effect. So the Prot Energies would continue to operate and we could have something like one of the Vigor spells running to provide at least a modicum of healing.
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Leonis



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:43 pm

Six of Six wrote:

Third: Go back to Io'lokar and talk to everybody. Listen to what they say and don't say. See if anyone wants to travel with us to Khorvaire and meet the heads of state. Keep the meeting with the four plus one kingdoms. Tell them everything that we are not sworn to secercy over. Listen closely to what they say and don't say. See if they want to send anyone to Io'lokar. Go back to the city. Talk to everyone. Listen closely to what they say and don't say. Hang out in the city until called by the Chamber or the Khorvaire Council. That would be the newly formed Khorvaire Council if they know what good for them. From all of this somebody is going to say something that will make our path clear. However this fateful meeting may not be to, buy or for us.

No. Flat out no. 1) you guys are making the whole issue about leaving and not being able to come back. 2) its boring as all hell. We spent almost an entire game talking - hell i fell asleep. I don't feel like playing the listen to what they say and dont say - shil is smart, but i dont think he cares for that much political intrigue. No to going back. No to talking to everyone - well for another reason - talking to one person takes forever, tlking to everyone would take years - of real life game time.

Its almost as bad as when it took us 3 hours to go in the front door to the seed place - THREE HOURS!
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Nameless



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:50 pm

Six of Six wrote:
Third: Go back to Io'lokar and talk to everybody. Listen to what they say and don't say. See if anyone wants to travel with us to Khorvaire and meet the heads of state. Keep the meeting with the four plus one kingdoms. Tell them everything that we are not sworn to secercy over. Listen closely to what they say and don't say. See if they want to send anyone to Io'lokar. Go back to the city. Talk to everyone. Listen closely to what they say and don't say. Hang out in the city until called by the Chamber or the Khorvaire Council. That would be the newly formed Khorvaire Council if they know what good for them. From all of this somebody is going to say something that will make our path clear. However this fateful meeting may not be to, buy or for us.

Shil isn't Mark Bonn. He has lots of action going on we never see but he keeps it consistent. He dosen't leave clues to nowhere, rather we see the tip of the iceberg from the NPC's we meet. Because things are consistent in the background, we can extraploate meaning from the foreground. I can deal with this kind of activity more than ***deleted for editorial content***

This is a fine plan, but...

Subtly and Political intrigue are not my strong points and Nameless is even worse at them. Gareth has lots of diplomatic skills, but Avi doesn't. Korm only cares if it tastes good with lethal levels of Spices. As for Luna/Julia, we'd be better off shooting ourselves, than trying to get her to do it.

If you want to execute these sorts of plans and ideas, YOU need to put them forth and YOU are going to have to take point on them. Nobody objects (aside from Luna) to these sorts of plans, but nobody else is any good at them. I will happily do what you suggest, if you suggest it when we can do something about it.
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Nameless



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:53 pm

Gareth wrote:
No. Flat out no. 1) you guys are making the whole issue about leaving and not being able to come back. 2) its boring as all hell. We spent almost an entire game talking - hell i fell asleep. I don't feel like playing the listen to what they say and dont say - shil is smart, but i dont think he cares for that much political intrigue. No to going back. No to talking to everyone - well for another reason - talking to one person takes forever, tlking to everyone would take years - of real life game time.

Its almost as bad as when it took us 3 hours to go in the front door to the seed place - THREE HOURS!

There's plenty of opportunities for handing most of the talking stuff in between games. Like we have done many times in the past. With 2 weeks in between games on average that's plenty of time.
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Leonis



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:56 pm

Nameless wrote:
Gareth has lots of diplomatic skills, but Avi doesn't

I beg to differ on that notion. I do have a lot of tact and diplomacy - but I honestly don't care at most times in the game. Its a game i like to have fun - and spending an entire game playing politics = suck
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:56 pm

Gareth wrote:
Six of Six wrote:
Alright.
First: Look at what Shil's done and apply it for us. We do have to look at everything that is going on not just the things appling to our characters.
Ex: Big X had many magical auras on him, two of which were spells. The dim door ability is likely from an item. Have we seen this before (red lich).
Elaborate please. Big X only had two auras - we are pretty sure it is shield and GMA. The dragon may have a dim door item, but we shouldn't assume cause the lich did the dragon will - it is very anti shil to use the sme thing over and over.

Your plan sounds good. Would you mind bullet pointing it?

Well something like this.

1 Korm and Luna prepare two bags of fire seeds, 19th level.
2 We sneak, yes sneak, around exploring. Big X spots us and attacks with overconfidence that is unprepped. If he works like before we will hear him coming. Or we come across him sitting waiting for us. We want him to feel safe enough not to buff up.
3 We all need to be on the same side of the initiavite from Big X, before or after doesn't matter. Hopefully the opening move will be the breath weapon. That would stop him from doing something useful
4 Six puts the silence near him. Luna puts the earthquake on him but not us. Nameless puts the dimension anchor on. Between korm and Gareth the one with the best range attack set on spell overwatch, the other one lays out the fireseed within easy reach of... the quicken summoned monsters. Nameless, Korm and Luna bring in 1d4+1 things that can throw and they can talk to. Tell them to pick up a seed and throw it at the dragon.
5. Luna cast earthquake again. Keep throwing. Use your favorite boom boom spell.
6. If its not dead. Throw tomatoes at Shil.
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Leonis



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:08 pm

Six of Six wrote:
tomatoes at Shil.

We were going to do that anyhow.

We also need protection - like force cage. This thing is not going to stand and let us have fun.

We need to win initiative. If nameless wins forcecage will make a great way to keep this thing pinned while burying him (and keeping him pinned some more)
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Nameless



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:19 pm

Gareth wrote:
We need to win initiative. If nameless wins forcecage will make a great way to keep this thing pinned while burying him (and keeping him pinned some more)

It's too big to fit in Forcecage. It's 80' long and forcecage is only 20'x20'. If it's going to be of any use to us, it's going to have to be around us.

Six wrote:
4 Six puts the silence near him. Luna puts the earthquake on him but not us. Nameless puts the dimension anchor on. Between korm and Gareth the one with the best range attack set on spell overwatch, the other one lays out the fireseed within easy reach of... the quicken summoned monsters. Nameless, Korm and Luna bring in 1d4+1 things that can throw and they can talk to. Tell them to pick up a seed and throw it at the dragon.

I'm not sure what the point of summoning creatures to throw the seeds is. The acorns Gareth and Six could throw. Do you mean the berries with the 5' range. They do have better average damage. But we could just put them all in a bag and have one summoned creature do it. Handing them the bag/berries could be tricky through the 1/2" gap in the bars though.
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:26 pm

Nameless wrote:
How about "Hide From Dragons" then?

Nope.

Six of Six wrote:
Shil isn't Mark Bonn. He has lots of action going on we never see but he keeps it consistent. He dosen't leave clues to nowhere, rather we see the tip of the iceberg from the NPC's we meet. Because things are consistent in the background, we can extraploate meaning from the foreground. I can deal with this kind of activity more than ***deleted for editorial content***

Who's Mark Bonn? And I'm glad you noticed.

Quote :
I am remembering Shil saying the dragon had more auras two of which were spells. I didn't catch how the dragon dim doored. Was it a spell or a command word or something else.

Spell. Spell! Why does nobody listen to me?

Quote :
Well something like this.

1 Korm and Luna prepare two bags of fire seeds, 19th level.
2 We sneak, yes sneak, around exploring. Big X spots us and attacks with overconfidence that is unprepped. If he works like before we will hear him coming. Or we come across him sitting waiting for us. We want him to feel safe enough not to buff up.
3 We all need to be on the same side of the initiavite from Big X, before or after doesn't matter. Hopefully the opening move will be the breath weapon. That would stop him from doing something useful
4 Six puts the silence near him. Luna puts the earthquake on him but not us. Nameless puts the dimension anchor on. Between korm and Gareth the one with the best range attack set on spell overwatch, the other one lays out the fireseed within easy reach of... the quicken summoned monsters. Nameless, Korm and Luna bring in 1d4+1 things that can throw and they can talk to. Tell them to pick up a seed and throw it at the dragon.
5. Luna cast earthquake again. Keep throwing. Use your favorite boom boom spell.
6. If its not dead. Throw tomatoes at Shil.

Nice plan. I like it! I think it significantly raises your chances of getting out alive.

P.S. Bring tomatoes.
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Nameless



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:38 pm

Admin wrote:
Nope.

Can you save me the guessing game for what 7th lvl SC/PHB2 spells you aren't going to permit?

Admin wrote:
Who's Mark Bonn? And I'm glad you noticed.


Mark Bonn was the guy who ran the Vindicator's campaign. He was noted for making all of our powers completely useless for finding the bad guys. So that the only way to actually accomplish anything was to be able to do what he considered "detective work", which nobody was able to do and seemed to make sense only to him.

Admin wrote:
Spell. Spell! Why does nobody listen to me?


I said it two or three times as well and nobody was paying attention to me either.

RE:Earthquake - If the spell has an 80' radius and the dragon is 80' long, can't we center it 10' behind it, so it's pinned through most of it's length and can still target the front without any penalties.
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:45 pm

Nameless wrote:
Can you save me the guessing game for what 7th lvl SC/PHB2 spells you aren't going to permit?


I thought you already decided on your 4 non-core spells for 7th lvl. There are 38 Sor/Wiz spells in SC, some more in PHB2, and the number rises substantially when we throw in the druid spells. I seriously don't have the time right now to go through each one. Let's just go with the ones you guys have picked.

Quote :
Mark Bonn was the guy who ran the Vindicator's campaign. He was noted for making all of our powers completely useless for finding the bad guys. So that the only way to actually accomplish anything was to be able to do what he considered "detective work", which nobody was able to do and seemed to make sense only to him.

Ah, 'creative' railroading! tongue
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Six of Six



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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:51 pm

Nameless wrote:
Admin wrote:
Nope.

Can you save me the guessing game for what 7th lvl SC/PHB2 spells you aren't going to permit?

Admin wrote:
Who's Mark Bonn? And I'm glad you noticed.


Mark Bonn was the guy who ran the Vindicator's campaign. He was noted for making all of our powers completely useless for finding the bad guys. So that the only way to actually accomplish anything was to be able to do what he considered "detective work", which nobody was able to do and seemed to make sense only to him.

Admin wrote:
Spell. Spell! Why does nobody listen to me?


I said it two or three times as well and nobody was paying attention to me either.

RE:Earthquake - If the spell has an 80' radius and the dragon is 80' long, can't we center it 10' behind it, so it's pinned through most of it's length and can still target the front without any penalties.

Mark wanted us to do some things other than combat. Unfortunattely the clues went nowhere. The investagtion action was like the old computer games that had no instructions and you had to guess the command words. To be fair this happen late in the campaign.

We need the summoned monsters as the dragon will only be immoblie for two rounds and we can only throw one seed at a time. Unless you have quick draw it is a move action to ready one seed, standard to throw it.
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:14 am

Admin wrote:
I thought you already decided on your 4 non-core spells for 7th lvl. There are 38 Sor/Wiz spells in SC, some more in PHB2, and the number rises substantially when we throw in the druid spells. I seriously don't have the time right now to go through each one. Let's just go with the ones you guys have picked.

Yes and one of them was Energy Immunity, which you said you're not allowing. I thought I had run all these past you, but obviously there was either a miscommunication or you changed your mind. My second suggestion was "Hide from Dragons" which you also aren't permitting. You've generally rejected at least one of the spells I've asked about for the other levels as well.

FWIW, I list the SC/PHB2 spells Nameless has, in his entry in the Rogues Gallery thread.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3905928

So I'm only talking about Wiz spells and Nameless has Illusion and Necromancy as banned schools, so you don't need to look at any of those. He already has 3 of the remaining as well.

You can actually skip the PHB2. There's only 4 lv 7 spells in the PHB2. One is Necromantic. One of them is "Greater Luminous assasin. Which gives you a 25 hp, CR 5 rogue for 1rnd/lvl. Whee! (This is another of the Why the hell is this such a high level spell? spells). Another is a stat buff spell (It would be useless even if you were permitting them) and the remaining one only gives bonuses that are redundant for Nameless anyway. Except for the 2d6 it does to people near him (ie. his allies) each round.

Six wrote:
We need the summoned monsters as the dragon will only be immoblie for two rounds and we can only throw one seed at a time. Unless you have quick draw it is a move action to ready one seed, standard to throw it.

Actually from the spell description it doesn't preclude throwing multiple acorns/berries in a round. It at the very least implies that you can throw 4/8 per round. Though it could be argued that's for the results of a specific casting. But given the duration, size of the seeds and the length of the spell I don't see why you couldn't toss as many as you like.
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:24 am

Six of Six wrote:


Mark wanted us to do some things other than combat.

When i first read this, bad thoughts entered my head and i felt sorry for you guys.
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:30 am

Nameless wrote:

It's too big to fit in Forcecage. It's 80' long and forcecage is only 20'x20'. If it's going to be of any use to us, it's going to have to be around us.

I know its too big to be in a forcecage, but I am thinking if circumstances permit and we can use the forcecage as a wall then the dragon won't have a big enough area to get through the cave. So if the cave is 40 diameter - and the dragon has to squeeze, then closing 20 of that would make it impossible for the dragon to get through.
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:48 am

Nameless wrote:
Yes and one of them was Energy Immunity, which you said you're not allowing. I thought I had run all these past you, but obviously there was either a miscommunication or you changed your mind.

Gah! My mistake. I must have had a brain fart, since I'm sure I don't want to allow that one.

Quote :
My second suggestion was "Hide from Dragons" which you also aren't permitting. You've generally rejected at least one of the spells I've asked about for the other levels as well.

Heh! There's a lot of SC stuff I'll reject.

Quote :
FWIW, I list the SC/PHB2 spells Nameless has, in his entry in the Rogues Gallery thread.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3905928

So I'm only talking about Wiz spells and Nameless has Illusion and Necromancy as banned schools, so you don't need to look at any of those. He already has 3 of the remaining as well.

Thanks. Okay, here's a quick list of the 7th lvl SC spells I'm not allowing (lots of them):

Antimagic Ray
Bite of the Werebear
Brilliant Aura
Dragon Ally
Elemental Body
Energy Immunity
Hide From Dragons
Ironguard

This is a quick listing, so I may notice something about one(s) that you pick later and change something.

BTW, if you're trying to buy time vs. the dragon, take another look at Stun Ray, which you do have. You auto-stun the target for 1 round even if it makes the save. That's one reason I'd been iffy about allowing it. Makes it even harder to make single BBEG fights than it already is at these levels. I won't make you drop it, but I think I'll make it so that creatures with resistance to electricity are unaffected if they make the save. Makes it less of a sure thing.

Quote :
Actually from the spell description it doesn't preclude throwing multiple acorns/berries in a round. It at the very least implies that you can throw 4/8 per round. Though it could be argued that's for the results of a specific casting. But given the duration, size of the seeds and the length of the spell I don't see why you couldn't toss as many as you like.

I can't see anything which indicates one can throw multiple ones, and it would be too easy to break wide open. 15th level druid uses every spell slot he can to cast Fire Seeds. Even without bonus spells from Wis, that's 6 castings. Then throw them all in the same round, if there's no restriction. 90d6 fire damage with no save. Yeah, right! Even if one says they work off BAB, that's 45d6 with no save. Not happening. The spell's strong enough as it is.
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PostSubject: Re: Dragon Slaying Planning   Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:01 am

Admin wrote:

BTW, if you're trying to buy time vs. the dragon, take another look at Stun Ray, which you do have. You auto-stun the target for 1 round even if it makes the save. That's one reason I'd been iffy about allowing it. Makes it even harder to make single BBEG fights than it already is at these levels. I won't make you drop it, but I think I'll make it so that creatures with resistance to electricity are unaffected if they make the save. Makes it less of a sure thing.

I can't see anything which indicates one can throw multiple ones, and it would be too easy to break wide open. 15th level druid uses every spell slot he can to cast Fire Seeds. Even without bonus spells from Wis, that's 6 castings. Then throw them all in the same round, if there's no restriction. 90d6 fire damage with no save. Yeah, right! Even if one says they work off BAB, that's 45d6 with no save. Not happening. The spell's strong enough as it is.

I disagree that resist energy/protection from energy is enough. If resist energy didn't cap then maybe or if we can stack multiple prot from energy to take over when one finishes. But vs things like dragons (or as we get higher level other critters) that can do 100 damage in one breath that will blow through the protect very fast and then the resist energy 30 is nothing. The only people who really will be protected are those with evasion or imp evasion. But ahh well. Energy immunity is powerful - but think of it. if we cast 5 energy immunities (which i dont think we can) that will make one of the dragons multiple attacks ineffectual at the cost of what a 7th level spell slot per spell? So there goes all the 7th level spells. Now if the dragon has breath energy substitution? I dont have the spell in front of me and may be remembering it wrong - so if I am don't worry about it - not arguing with you, just stating my thoughts.

On the berry thing I would imagine you cant throw more then one castings worth even if the book doesn't state it (I guess thats the d6/lvl dmg so with the bead of karma that is 19d6). To throw 10 castings of them (19d6 per casting) would be insane. Especially touch attack. See Shil - when I think you are right I will agree with you - even if it doesn't favor the pcs Smile Though if you allow that then I am getting 100 vials of acid, casting shrink on them, putting them in a bag and throwing it at a target. Can we say McDonalds? --- oh and that is allowed hehe. Or Put 100 vials of acid in a bag of holding - flip the bag inside out (pointing it towards someone) and watch 100 vials of acid fly in someones face --- can someone say "Have it your way?" Smile
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