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Rowan



Number of posts : 235
Registration date : 2006-09-16

PostSubject: TPK   Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:12 pm

I've been thinking about what happens next with the game, and I'm not sure I'm all that interested in playing new clones from Mordain. While I enjoy the characters, the story, and the world, the fights have become way too predictable and frustrating. Almost all of the fights recently have followed the exact same sequence of events:

Face off against foes who, as written up in the MM would be reasonable opponents, but who are transformed into hideous unbeatable monstrosities by a collection of buff spells, giving them astronomically high ACs and resistances to most of our spells. Since trying to hit a 44 AC (or similar defenses from the other hideous unhittable monstrosities) is completely futile, we spend the first few rounds trying to debuff them while they beat the crap out of us. Inevitably, in those first few rounds Gareth is taken down, as well as one or two other characters, and Luna and Korm spend the next few rounds healing them up. We eventually debuff the opponents to some degree, so they're slightly less hideously unhittable, so we only need natural 16s to hit them, instead of natural 20s. We eventually grind them down, as the PCs hop up and down like weebles from the seesaw of massively damaging attacks vs. Heal.

I like RPGs to include heroic action, not slogs of debuffing unhittable enemies. I don't find the latter very fun; it's mainly an odd combination of frustrating and boring.
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Nameless



Number of posts : 307
Registration date : 2006-09-11

PostSubject: Re: TPK   Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:30 pm

This sums up almost perfectly, what I've found frustrating about many of the recent battles in the campaign.

I don't mind tough opponent, I do mind ones who are immune to just about anything I can do. I shouldn't be getting to my turn and going "There's nothing I can do that is going to be significantly effective and/or that is going to be able to affect them."
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Admin
Admin


Number of posts : 1299
Localisation : RBDM with a heart of gold
Registration date : 2006-09-11

PostSubject: Re: TPK   Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:10 pm

The combat hasn't been doing much for me from the opposite side of the DM screen either, and I honestly think most (if not all) of the issues you guys noted are unfortunately built into high-level 3e combat. From what I've seen of many story hours on the ENWorld forums, there's a big difference between how cool a combat sounds in description and how exciting (or not) the actual mechanical grind is.

Mostly because of the sheer amount of damage high-level PCs do, any combat which needs to last more than 2 rds needs enemies which are heavily reliant on resistance/immunities (you can include high ACs within that), and taking them down is a pain in the ass. The wide variation in PC power in specific areas only exacerbates the problem. Gareth, for example, can hit things with an AC 10 pts higher than Korm or Six can, and do some 200+ pts of damage in a round. Which means an enemy which can stand up to him for a round is almost unhittable by them, and an enemy which they can dispose of in 2-3 rds is a speedbump to him. Luna has crazy hit pts and Heal spells, which means enemies which can drop her in 3-4 rds will obliterate most other PCs in 1-2. And so on. Plus PC power level shifts so drastically based on buffs that an encounter which can challenge buffed PCs will murder unbuffed ones, and one which will be interesting for unbuffed PCs will be 2 rds of minimal effort for buffed PCs. Throw summoned creatures (which 3 of the PCs can pop up in a moment) into the mix and the variance is even worse.

In short, as I mentioned, I think a lot of the stuff which you guys mentioned are part and parcel of high-level 3e combat. I've seen it with us, in the high-level campaigns I'm playing in and have played in online, and in the ones I read about on ENWorld. Which is fine as long as someone enjoys it, but I don't, and clearly neither do you. And eliminating them would probably require me rewriting high-level play from the ground up, which I have neither time and inclination for.

So for the time being I'd definitely like to take a break from high-level 3e and maybe even 3e as a whole. I'll send out a group email about it and see what other people have to say.
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Leonis



Number of posts : 746
Age : 41
Registration date : 2006-09-11

PostSubject: Re: TPK   Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:35 pm

I still will be sad to see our characters go. I enjoyed them - the story. And dammit - another paladin without a holy avenger, dragon armor, ascended to god-hood and marrying Lalia.

So there will probably a final cap in story hour, but would you let us know what kind of things you had planned? Just curious as to where it could have gone.

For my next character...psionicist Smile
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Admin
Admin


Number of posts : 1299
Localisation : RBDM with a heart of gold
Registration date : 2006-09-11

PostSubject: Re: TPK   Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:51 pm

Gareth wrote:
I still will be sad to see our characters go. I enjoyed them - the story. And dammit - another paladin without a holy avenger, dragon armor, ascended to god-hood and marrying Lalia.

I enjoyed the characters and the story a lot too, but by the end of it the mechanical aspects of high-level play were seriously getting in the way of the enjoyment for me.

Quote :
So there will probably a final cap in story hour, but would you let us know what kind of things you had planned? Just curious as to where it could have gone.

I'll definitely write up a final instalment at some point, but sure, I'll tell you some of the possibilities I had in mind. There was nothing which was a sure thing, since I didn't want to have a fixed campaign end in mind and was never sure what nuttiness you guys would get up to.

Quote :
For my next character...psionicist Smile

Not available in 4e :p

More seriously, the nice thing is that you can take the mechanics for a wizard in 4e and totally make it a psionicist in flavor.
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Rowan



Number of posts : 235
Registration date : 2006-09-16

PostSubject: Re: TPK   Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:06 pm

Admin wrote:
More seriously, the nice thing is that you can take the mechanics for a wizard in 4e and totally make it a psionicist in flavor.
Only if your conception of a psionicist involves blowing things up and nothing else. The typical psionic powers - telepathy, domination, telekinesis, etc. - aren't available to wizards.
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Admin


Number of posts : 1299
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PostSubject: Re: TPK   Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:50 pm

Korm'akhan wrote:
Only if your conception of a psionicist involves blowing things up and nothing else. The typical psionic powers - telepathy, domination, telekinesis, etc. - aren't available to wizards.

Avi's the one who mentioned psionics. I'm betting he wants to blow stuff up!
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